Philippe Herreweghe A Conversation with Camille De Rijck - IDAGIO
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Philippe Herreweghe A Conversation with Camille De Rijck
Philippe Herreweghe A Conversation with Camille De Rijck
Contents / Sommaire
Philippe’s Musical Choice
Foreword - A Question of Time
A Conversation with Philippe Herreweghe
EN
Biographies
Avant-propos - Le temps qui reste
Conversation avec Philippe Herreweghe
FR
Biographies
Vorwort - Die Zeit, die uns noch bleibt
Gespräch mit Philippe Herreweghe
DE
Biografien
Voorwoord - De tijd die nog rest
Gesprek met Philippe Herreweghe
NL
biografieën
Distribution
Credits
Philippe Herreweghe in Colour
Cantata “Herr, gehe nicht ins Gericht mit deinem Knecht”,
Philippe’s Musical Choice BWV 105
22 Coro. Herr, gehe nicht ins Gericht mit deinem Knecht_____________ 04’59
23 Recitativo. Mein Gott, verwirf mich nicht (Alto)___________________00’55
24 Aria. Wie zittern und wanken (Soprano)___________________________ 05’31
25 Recitativo. Wohl aber dem, der seinen Bürgen weiß (Bass)________ 01’57
DISC 1 26 Aria. Kann ich nur Jesum mir zum Freunde machen (Tenor)________ 05’35
27 Choral. Nun, ich weiß, du wirst mir stillen_________________________ 01’45
Carlo Gesualdo
Madrigali a cinque voci, Libro sesto (1611)
TOTAL_____________________________________________________________ 74’16
1 Se la mia morte brami_____________________________________________ 03’37
2 Beltà, poi che t’assenti____________________________________________03’03
3 Tu piangi, o Filli mia_______________________________________________ 03’10 DISC 2
4 Resta di darmi noia________________________________________________ 02’57
5 Chiaro risplender suole____________________________________________ 03’43 Ludwig van Beethoven
6 Mille volte il dì moro e voi, empi sospiri____________________________ 03’12 Missa solemnis in D Major, Op. 123
7 O dolce mio tesoro________________________________________________ 02’47
8 Io pur respiro in così gran dolore__________________________________ 02’44 1 I. Kyrie____________________________________________________________ 11’30
9 Ancide sol la morte________________________________________________02’23 2 II. Gloria___________________________________________________________ 16’35
10 Quel “no” crudel, che la mia speme ancise________________________ 02’24 3 III. Credo__________________________________________________________ 17’58
11 Moro, lasso! Al mio duolo__________________________________________03’34 4 IV. Sanctus________________________________________________________ 14’02
12 Tu segui, o bella Clori, un fuggitivo core___________________________02’20 5 V. Agnus Dei_______________________________________________________ 15’14
13 Già piansi nel dolore_______________________________________________ 02’12
14 Quando ridente e bella_____________________________________________ 02’27 TOTAL_____________________________________________________________ 75’19
Johann Sebastian Bach DISC 3
Cantata “Ich elender Mensch, wer wird mich erlösen”,
BWV 48 Hector Berlioz
Nuits d’été, Op. 7
15 Ich elender Mensch, wer wird mich erlösen________________________ 04’57
16 O Schmerz, o elend, so mich trifft__________________________________01’11 1 III. Sur les lagunes (lamento) Ma belle amie est morte_____________06’20
17 Solls ja so sein____________________________________________________00’39 2 V. Au cimetière (clair de lune) Connaissez-vous la blanche tombe__ 05’48
18 Ach, lege das Sodom der sündlichen Glieder_______________________ 02’21
19 Hier aber tut des Heilands Hand___________________________________ 00’41
20 Vergibt mir Jesus meine Sünden___________________________________02’39
21 Herr Jesu Christ, einiger Trost_____________________________________ 01’02
Gustav Mahler Igor Stravinsky
Symphonie No. 4 in G Major Requiem Canticles
3 I. Bedächtig. Nicht eilen___________________________________________ 15’36 4 Praeludium_________________________________________________________01’11
4 II. In gemächlicher Bewegung. Ohne Hast_________________________09’00 5 Exaudi_____________________________________________________________ 01’43
5 III. Ruhevoll________________________________________________________ 20’07 6 Dies irae__________________________________________________________00’56
6 IV. Sehr behaglich_________________________________________________ 08’41 7 Tuba mirum________________________________________________________ 01’06
8 Interludium________________________________________________________ 02’31
TOTAL : ___________________________________________________________ 65’49 9 Rex tremendae_____________________________________________________01’11
10 Lacrimosa_________________________________________________________ 01’46
11 Libera me_________________________________________________________00’54
DISC 4 12 Postludium________________________________________________________ 01’54
Antonín Dvořák Threni, Id est lamentationes Jeremiae Prophetae
Requiem, Op. 89
13 Incipit_____________________________________________________________ 00’51
1 I. Introitus (Requiem æternam - Kyrie eleison)____________________ 10’44 14 De elegia prima___________________________________________________ 06’48
2 II. Graduale (Requiem æternam)___________________________________04’39 De elegia tertia
Sequentia 15 I. Querimonia___________________________________________________06’55
3 III. Dies irae____________________________________________________02’28 16 II. Sensus spei__________________________________________________06’36
4 IV. Tuba mirum_________________________________________________08’36 17 III. Solacium____________________________________________________03’23
5 V. Quid sum miser______________________________________________06’03 18 De elegia quinta: Oratio Jeremiae Prophetae______________________ 03’18
6 VI. Recordare, Jesu pie_________________________________________ 07’03
7 VII. Confutatis maledictis______________________________________ 04’42 TOTAL_____________________________________________________________62’25
8 VIII. Lacrimosa_________________________________________________06’33
Offertorium
9 XIX. Domine Jesu Christe______________________________________ 10’53
10 X. Hostias______________________________________________________ 10’14
TOTAL_____________________________________________________________ 71’55
DISC 5
1 XI. Sanctus - Benedictus__________________________________________05’54
2 XII. Pie Jesu_______________________________________________________ 04’19
3 XIII. Agnus Dei_____________________________________________________11’12
TOTAL of the 5 DISCS_______________________________________________ 5h49’59
Foreword
A Question of Time
I
t seems reasonable to expect that an artist, seeing his life in terms of a progressive
ascent, will make his dizzying way towards its conclusion, celebrating each birthday as
he goes. But what if he is aware of a countdown, constantly reminding him of the time
remaining to him? How will that affect his work? Sitting in his study with its well-up-
holstered chairs and parquet floor, all scented by a candle, Philippe Herreweghe, turn-
EN
ing 70 in 2017, looks at his diary. “You see those coloured boxes. Each one corresponds
to a specific project – a concert, a recording and the rehearsals needed for each.” Sure
enough, his diary is dotted, or rather strewn with coloured boxes that commit him body and
soul to engagements two, three or four years in advance.
It is, indeed, dizzying to think that a conductor of his stature is not completely at liberty to
shape the timing of his career. If he wants his own ensembles to undertake major tours, or
if he wants to conduct other renowned groups of musicians, he has no choice but to book
himself up several seasons ahead. What if doubts arise, or if he suddenly likes the idea
of conducting a Mahler symphony or recording Strauss’s Four Last Songs? The answer is
that he has no choice but to comply with the tyranny of calendars and the rhythm of the
concert seasons. Herein lies a key paradox of a conductor’s life: the more substantial his
reputation and the more power he wields, the less freedom he enjoys. He is like a king in a
sumptuous gilded palace who is forbidden from going outside to take a breath of fresh air.
With time passing relentlessly for him, an artist needs to take stock of his resources.
“Let’s suppose that I have 10 more years of conducting ahead of me. How many coloured
boxes will I be able to fill?” Philippe Herreweghe asks. He is constantly faced with choices,
even though he confesses to an almost dizzying capacity for indecision. It is as if he were
faced with making a methodical list of every project he will undertake until the end of his
career, or as if a young pianist, fresh out of the conservatory, were asked to provide an in-
ventory of all the pieces he will ever play. “Ten years? And how many projects?” It is quite
possible that, in 20 years, Philippe Herreweghe will be asking himself the same question.
This series of interviews with Herreweghe came out of the blue. It was an idea that was hur-
riedly put into action between Christmas and New Year in the form of several spontaneous,
free-ranging and open-ended discussions. Over a cup of coffee, Philippe Herreweghe held
forth at length on subjects close to his heart. The interviews ran to 10 hours, but only nine or 10
questions were needed to unleash his formidable streams of consciousness. The intention was
not to capture his thoughts whole so that they could be displayed for posterity, like a collection
of miniature ships in bottles, but rather to catch pieces of them as they flew around. It was
like being allowed to visit a museum at night and finding our way with torches around some of
the rooms – an intimate experience rather than any attempt to make an exhaustive catalogue.
A Conversation
with Philippe Herreweghe
Camille De Rijck
When Joseph Renan undertook to write a biography of Jesus, it left him little room to do Camille De Rijck: Do you belong to the pio- I’ve conducted, which runs from works of
anything else. Similarly, certain artists, intentionally or by sheer force of circumstance, neering generation of baroque specialists the early Renaissance to the 21st century,
become almost inseparable from the figures they champion. Whether it is a matter of who, having gained a thorough experience and I have come to focus on a slightly nar-
elective affinities, or of some kind of marriage of convenience, this phenomenon always of early music, have gone on to widen their rower repertoire: from 1580 to the present
merits examination. When you first mention Bach to Philippe Herreweghe he raises his repertoire considerably? day, give or take a year or two. This leads
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eyebrows rather than assuming the expected posture of intense devotion, somewhere me back to one the questions that I’m often
between prostration and genuflexion, like a Franciscan friar at Christ’s feet, face down Philippe Herreweghe: Yes, and I am not the asked in interviews and which always per-
on the cold flagstones with his arms stretched out on either side. Passions are always only one to have taken that route. There plexes me a little: “How do you manage to
complex and Herreweghe refuses to subjugate himself entirely to the Lutheran master, is John Eliot Gardiner, of course, but also conduct both Bach and Mahler?” as if these
and his discography bears witness to his driving need for freedom, space and adventure. someone like Ton Koopman, whose name I two composers were mutually exclusive.
Finding the same pleasure in Flemish polyphony as he does in Stravinsky’s harsh serial saw the other day on a poster, announcing First of all, before I was on the scene, good
works, Herreweghe is always ready to play on the neuroses – or the otherworldliness – of him as the conductor for Beethoven’s 9th professionals would conduct the classics
his musicians as he seeks above all to serve the composer. with the Wiener Symphoniker. We have while also giving premieres of new works.
turned to other areas of repertoire be- They had a broader view and knew that their
Camille De Rijck cause we have been doing early music for horizons weren’t as narrow as other people
years and years and perhaps feel we have could assume.
now done what we can with the essentials.
There will have been numerous works that, Now, with the baggage that we have, we
as we carried out our explorations, we have got into the habit of taking a critical
considered to be of insufficient quality. For view on scores. As soon as you approached
myself, even within that repertoire there a work for the first time, you would also
were works whose style I did not find very engage with a whole series of musicologi-
exciting, most of the French Baroque, for cal works devoted to it. This is perhaps the
instance. I’ve performed a lot of it and I moment to pay homage to musicologists,
can say that it doesn’t strike a chord in me. who have often been the true pioneers.
Fortunately it has found perfect advocates They spend four years working on a very
in other performers. We have ended up specific question, then they publish a book.
feeling that we are shut into a little musi- I’ve always benefited from their research,
cal box, the one where people expected to assimilating everything that has been writ-
find us. This blinkered approach has always ten about a work. When I started out on
bothered me, because life offers such huge Brahms, for example, I read an enormous
vistas. It became oppressive for us. Even amount about his tempi. In that sense I
Johann Sebastian Bach, whose music is consult rather than research. The musicol-
so rich, so ambitious, and of such genius, ogists are the researchers. What’s more the
cannot be the only musical nourishment ‘Baroque specialists’ build on a certain mu-
that an artist takes over his entire life. We sical base that has perhaps now been taken
were looking for other outlets. I found them over by other generations of musicians. This
in one or other areas of the repertoire that base allows them to approach the music of
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the 19 th century while remaining conscious has become a matter of somehow pander- example, but I’ve read Philip Roth – which is the occasional essay – he didn’t have an ar-
of where it has come from. By working with ing to the public, as it the public always probably more than they have. And, without tistic bent. My mother, by contrast, came
the choreographer and researcher Francine wanted to hear the same symphonies and wishing to be provocative, I think you can from a family where music occupied an
Lancelot – who is no longer with us – I was the same masses. It’s absurd, really. When hear that in their music-making. important place. There were four daughters
able to delve very deeply into the nature of I started in this job this pressure didn’t in the household and they all played Cho-
a minuet or a gavotte... not just by watching exist and financial imperatives seemed to Can you be a great musician without pin études. At the time there was nothing
them being danced, but by going back to impinge noticeably less on programming a broader culture? unusual about that – that’s the way it was
their origins, by understanding them from a policy. You listened to the music, you stud- in nice families. I believe that I inherited a
historical perspective. Dance is very deeply ied the scores and you said, “I’d love to do A musician’s connection to the world is feeling for music from my mother. Some-
rooted in us and it is omnipresent in early that!”, and you did it, just like that. It has through music. That is something you no- times my sisters and I argue when I talk
music. This kind of analysis gives us a bet- to be said that there was another factor tice very quickly. In a string quartet or in to them about inheriting musicality, even
ter understanding of Bach’s counterpoint, in my favour: some of my most illustrious an orchestra – at best, anyway – there is though they weren’t exactly privileged
which is particularly complex, the inter- colleagues were very single-minded and an exchange between the musicians, the in that area. But we were brought up the
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weaving of his musical lines, or of the stile were not prepared to leave their comfort conductor and the audience, a conversation same way. We came from the kind of milieu
antico. Untangling all these threads helps zone. I think I can remember hearing Gustav that is conducted not with words, but with where little girls learned music and little
me enormously these days when I am con- Leonhardt saying one day that “There is music. You can imagine that the richness of boys followed in their father’s footsteps,
ducting Brahms or Bruckner. In that sense no good music after Mozart.” This atti- this music is such that it could feed some but I’m the one who ended up becoming a
we have been pioneers to some degree. But tude became embedded in a certain kind musicians for their entire lives. You can musician. At school, I was always top of the
that would not have been possible if we, the of thinking that was very prevalent around be a fantastic musician without being an class, and if it happened that I wasn’t, then
‘Baroque specialists’, hadn’t very rapidly Versailles during the reign of François Mit- intellectual, that’s for sure. But I don’t be- my father didn’t speak to me for months. He
achieved financial independence. The music terrand, and which insisted that the French lieve that you can be a fantastic musician had bought a magnificent Pleyel piano for
director of a conventional large orchestra – Revolution had somehow tainted society without being intelligent. Because there my mother and I, of course, sat down to play
which is what I have ended up as in Antwerp and the art it had produced. The modern are so many different forms of intelligence. it. I literally made my home at the piano.
– is crippled by economic constraints. It is world, in their eyes, was simply vulgar. Emotional intelligence, for example, which On occasion I even fell asleep underneath
no longer a matter of programming a piece These people, as brilliant as they were, were is essential if you want to make music. it, when I was two or three years old and
because you want the audience to hear it... closing their eyes to the vast panorama of But lots of people seem to get along quite my mother was playing. As for my musical
No, programming ends up becoming some artistic history. I’m not sure, for instance, happily without analytical or rational intel- education, I owe an enormous amount to Jan
kind of political issue: it has to achieve that Gustav Leonhardt ever showed any ligence. But if you want to be a composer, Briers Senior, who ran the Flanders Festival
massive approval and the hall must be interest in Brahms. I doubt he ever read a or even a conductor, then this intelligence and aimed to educate the masses, in the
full, otherwise you feel as though you have score by Stravinsky. And I won’t even men- is quite simply essential. Some singers best sense. For instance, when I was eight
wasted public money. These orchestras are tion John Cage, who must just have been just stick to being brilliantly instinctive, years old the Concertgebouw came to my
very heavily subsidised – which is a very a name to him. In their area of specialism enjoying the sound of their own voices, and town and played Bruckner. It’s a little sur-
good thing, of course. It’s the subsidies that they were unbeatable, they earned a lot letting themselves be shaped by a conduc- prising that I should have been so taken by
pay the musicians and the administrators... of money and for people who wanted to be tor or by a director. It has to be said that, Bruckner so young. But it was at that kind
it provides a livelihood for hundreds of like them they were gurus, with followers in my time, conservatories did not seek to of age that I started at the conservatory,
people, albeit not lavishly. But I remember, queuing up to bow down before them. But it give students the benefit of anything over where I was expected to do dictation every
20 years ago, that the Vara Matinees in has always surprised me that they weren’t and above the content of the curriculum. It day, an exercise that would be beyond me
Amsterdam had an enlightened artistic interested to take a look at Schoenberg or was a bit like learning to be a plumber, only today. When I was 12 years old I started in
policy that meant I could give concerts that Webern, even just out of curiosity. Some of you learned counterpoint and a bit of music the senior piano class under Marcel Gazelle
combined Bach, Zemlinsky and Webern. The these people even had their sitting room history. But nothing much more to feed the a superb teacher who is now completely
audiences came, enjoyed learning some- walls covered in treatises on interpretation, imagination. forgotten. He toured internationally with
thing new and the hall was full. Now there is in texts on music, which they collected in Yehudi Menuhin. He was quite a personality.
an obsession with filling the hall no matter vast numbers like postage stamps, but I’m How does a psychiatrist become a conductor? It was a decisive encounter, but at the same
what, and one just ends up programming convinced that curiosity never prompted time, at home, I was conducting along with
the same works and the same composers. them to take a look at Proust or Joyce. Not My father was a doctor. He visited museums radio broadcasts of symphonic repertoire,
The world has become very nervous and it that I’ve ever read Joyce, that’s not a good sometimes, but read very little, apart from using a pencil as a baton. In other words,
there was something in me, even when I was ing out that he wasn’t exactly in love with and his friends, were always very interest- Renewal, no less! It staged two concerts
very young, which drew me to this career. psychiatry either. I decided to throw myself ed in all kinds of music. People don’t realise per month, in churches, with an audience of
Everyone who chooses to make a life in mu- into it. There were 42 candidates for three this today, but he wrote a monograph on about five hundred. They combined contem-
sic is guided by this feeling of being differ- assistant posts and I was chosen. I did psy- Schumann [and also composed Dichter- porary music and early music. I invited Gus-
ent, of not being like other people, of having chiatry for three years, and then I stopped liebereigentraum, inspired by Dichterliebe, tav Leonhardt, the Alarius Ensemble, Pierre
a slightly different perception of reality. as I was about to start studying neurology, Ed.]. He was very well acquainted with the Bartholomée and also – I was aged between
which would have required me to study for a Romantic repertoire and he was passionate 18 and 22 at the time – I went and stood
I feel this particularly when I conduct the further two years. I didn’t really know how I about early music. But he and his circle with a banner in front of the offices of the
Adagio of Bruckner’s 8th Symphony. There, was going to earn a living. When my rather felt it was necessary for the world of mu- Flanders Festival and called for the eradi-
you suddenly have a sense that there is went on holiday, I took over his practice for sic to extricate itself from the Romantic cation of bourgeois music. In other words,
just one reality, and that it exists in this about three weeks and that gave me enough language that had tarnished it in the 20 th this artistic initiative had a deeply political,
musical hothouse and nowhere else. It’s a to live on for a year as a musician. Very fru- century. And this led to very complex theo- revolutionary aspect for us, a translation
Platonic truth, in the sense that you feel gally, of course, in a little attic room with no retical constructs, the best known of which into music of the spirit of May 1968. For
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you have to come out of your cave to find idea of what the future would bring. It was are serialism and dodecaphonism. For them example, we’d perform one of the Bach
it, to explore the unexplored. That it what quite a time. Looking back on it, I should it was a matter of finding a basis for music Passions, and between the two halves,
you look for in music. Even as a child you be- have studied conducting rather than than that relied not on the emotions it evoked, just as in the composer’s time, there was
come aware of the homo ludens, this great psychiatry. In my life I have studied piano, but on the intellect. In a sense, they were a sermon. I spoke out against the Vietnam
treasure hunt, which takes holds of us and medicine and psychiatry, and the only thing reconnecting with the musical fundamen- War. We had long hair, we wore jeans, big
changes the direction of our life. That’s also that I’ve ever really done professionally – tals of Josquin des Prés, or some of his woolly sweaters and flowery shirts. It
the dichotomy between the solo musician – conducting – is something I never took predecessors, whose artistic expression was very much of the time. I wonder how
isolated in front of his instrument, eating lessons in. can appear much drier and more complex to Leonhardt put up with it all. There he was,
alone after the concert – and the commu- the modern ear than that of the composers an aristocrat, living in the finest house in
nal life of a string quartet or orchestra. In You went to to the Liège Consevatory. of the second half of the 16th century. The Amsterdam, on the Herengracht, with no
an orchestra, a sense of community really concept of modes, rhythms and proportions electricity, lighting the place with candles,
means something, because you can argue, Yes it was a wonderful time. I lived in the can seem somewhat more ambitious than surrounded by precious musical instru-
give each other a hard time, be jealous of bosom of the Pousseur family. Marianne in the music of Chopin, for example – he’s ments, furniture and paintings. Joining him
your neighbour... when you play good music, was my girlfriend at the time and I con- a fabulous composer, but he is not a pro- in our merry band there was Ton Koopman,
you establish a real sense of community, ducted the Conservatory choir that Henri ponent of complex theoretical principles. a grocer’s son, and the Kuijken crew, who,
much more powerful than you would find in Pousseur had founded. At my family home, Pousseur’s generation, like Stravinsky, even now, 50 years later, are still a bit like
an office in a bank occupied by 30 employ- there was not a great deal of talk around as it happens, tried to reconnect with the hippies. On the whole, then, we were an-
ees. But after the concert you have to make the table, except perhaps about politics and ambitions of the past. This also became ti-establishment and left-wing. That being
a brutal break, and each of us must return everyday, practical matters. Quite the op- evident in the concerts they organised. In said, I believe that art in nearly all its forms
to being an individual. The sense of com- posite was true in the Pousseur household. Liège, there were the Nuits de Septembre, is, by its very nature, anti-establishment. It
munity is lost and it makes you feel quite First of all, there were various luminaries a festival which still exists, and which were is opposed to the ways in which the world
vulnerable. To come back to your question, who came to share the family meal. I came very important at the time. tends to takes concrete shape. Politics,
about choosing a way of life, I need to put across people like Pierre Boulez and Michel for example, crystallise around provisional
things in context. My father had known real Butor – just like that, without any cere- There you would find the tireless musicol- constructs that are hardly ever ideal, while
poverty. He was someone who had known mony. Pousseur would launch into a major ogist Suzanne Clercx-Lejeune, mother of art is eternally in search of the ideal. Music
hunger. And it was up to me, following a kind analysis of a work between the fruit and the Jérôme Lejeune, who knew all there is to plays a distinctive role in this, since – un-
of pattern, to compensate for his failure. I dessert and there were great Homeric de- know about Johannes Ciconia. The link that like literature, theatre, cinema and even
had to be top of the class, play golf in order bates. It was fantastic and completely new I saw being made between contemporary painting – it is the art form least suited
to meet girls from nice families, and make for me, as was their music. From the point music and medieval music turned out to to conveying verbal ideas. Music, as such,
music, because that’s what a well-brought- of view of composition, Pousseur’s gener- be fundamental for me. It prompted me to cannot say anything. Musicians who are
up person did. When I decided I wanted to ation tended to confine itself by taking a found an organisation in Ghent with a rather anti-establishment and anti-reactionary
become a professional musician, he almost militant stance which still has trouble in grand name: Centrum voor Concertvernieu- express themselves in what they write and
threw me out of the house. It’s worth point- gaining widespread traction. But Pousseur, wing, in other words, the Centre for Concert through their lifestyle. Mostly by what theywrite, since their lifestyle can bring about he gets paid too, let it be said. A conductor spiky, bullying characters often turn out people be fascinated by the deep analytical
discrepancies. is someone who employs instrumentalists, to be very bad conductors. When I watch statement I would be making? Like many
who makes sure that each desk is filled by Sergiu Celibidache conducting, and heav- young people who sign up to do psychiatry, I
What place does doubt have in your life? men and women who are worthy of this ar- en knows I admire him, I literally cannot thought it would give me the key to a closer
tistic enterprise. Sometimes it can be pain- stand it: his relationship with the orchestra understanding of the tortuous mechanics
It is characteristic of my being, but I don’t ful, sometimes you have to be able to say is so diametrically opposed to what I aim of the human soul. When it comes down
know where it comes from. It is there, om- goodbye to a musician. When it comes down to achieve. We mustn’t forget that music to it, I ally myself with Nietzsche on this:
nipresent, often destructive and negative. to it, being a conductor is above all about provides space for freedom, and that mu- what best taught me about humanity was
12 years of schooling by Jesuits probably being able to organise everything. There sicians are creative beings whose wings not psychiatry or science, but Dostoevsky
played a role. Doubt can play a destabilising are about 300 people who rely on me. Be all are clipped if we deprive them of that free- and art.
role. When you doubt too much, you func- that as it may, when I am in front of my mu- dom. That is why I see each rehearsal as a
tion less well. When I hear someone talking, sicians these days, any doubts just disap- session I have a duty to guide, without any Could reading books be more formative for
I always wonder – as a matter of course – pear. They say that shy people can be cruel, sense of imposing constraints. But I’m not a conductor than learning how to conduct?
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about the validity of what they are saying. I but I gain a kind of confidence. Though I’m stupid: I attended Celibidache’s master-
don’t take anything as read. That must come plagued by doubt, when I take my place in classes, to get an idea of what made him This opens up the whole discussion about
from the Jesuits, but also from practising as front of one of my ensemble, I’m struck by a tick. Unfortunately, he was discussing mu- conducting. It’s a complex issue. My idea
a doctor, which forces you to take a ques- sense of assurance that just eliminates any sic by Schütz and came out with the most of the perfect conductor would be, quite
tioning stance. But I tend to extremes in nervousness – even if I am face to face with outrageous comments about works that I simply, someone who has the deepest pos-
this, and that isn’t necessarily positive. By the Berlin Philharmonic or the Concertge- probably knew better than he did. I would sible knowledge of the works he conducts.
contrast, I know conductors who never ex- bouw Orchestra. Any nervousness just dis- have loved to hear him talk about Bruckner But if you take Schumann as an example,
perience doubt, and that is something that appears. Admittedly, when I was younger, – even though my exemplar in that com- then my entire rationale collapses. Because
can be heard in their music-making. I have I used to sometimes get nervous, because poser’s music is Günter Wand – because Schumann had, by definition, a very deep
a habit which must be very irritating for the I wasn’t properly prepared, and didn’t yet at least I would have felt that he knew his understanding of his own works, yet he was
people at my record label, Phi. Every time know exactly how to go about things, but subject. But the contrast between his enor- a disastrous conductor. That’s because con-
I listen back to one of our recordings, just that just doesn’t happen anymore. That’s mous confidence and the disastrous conse- ducting also requires you to be something
before its release, I tell them that it can’t another reason why I love my job, because quences of his advice rather put me off his of a teacher. I often think about my sister,
possibly be put on the market. And then, as I concerts and rehearsals free me of any musical philosophy. who teaches French, and I am amazed by
listen to it again and again, I manage to take sense of doubt. And then, when the lights the similarities between her profession
a more detached view of my work and I tell go down, it comes back. It’s not that I’m Did he lack the psychological skills and mine. For example, the simple fact of
myself that I have to accept the way it has nervous for the moment, it’s rather that of a good psychiatrist? taking the people who are listening to you
ended up sounding. I’m nervous in anticipation – it’s projecting towards a specific goal. And, if possible, by
forwards. It makes me think of those moun- Psychiatry again! I did seven years of medi- using as few words as possible. Then there
It might seem paradoxical for doubt to taineers who spend months, even years cine, three years of psychiatry, and over that is the question of gestures, which is tricky.
be part of a conductor’s make-up. People preparing for an ascent and then, once the time I worked mainly with schizophrenics. They say that Harnoncourt’s gestures were
always imagine a conductor as someone moment arrives, can simply enjoy the climb. I don’t know if I’m more of a psychologist a disaster when he started off, and that he
who makes decisions for other people, as Once you are inside the music, everything than the next man. Often, I go to conduct learned how to do them later, but without
a man you have to follow, whether of your becomes clear, real and true, though I have somewhere and I read a great deal of infor- ever leaving his comfort zone. That is part
own free will or not. Or perhaps we kid our- a Platonic conception of making music, in mation about myself in the programme, and of being intelligent as a conductor. For
selves a little as to the reality of working the sense that I never try to impose my vi- it always mentions that I’m a psychiatrist. example, René Jacobs will probably nev-
as a conductor or as director of an ensem- sion of a score on my musicians in a way In a sense, I’m not sure this is something er conduct an opera by Richard Strauss,
ble. Because in our reality, the reality of that goes against what they think. that it is good for the audience to know. And where the relationship between stage and
Collegium Vocale and the Orchestre des I wouldn’t be too happy if my dentist, just orchestra, with huge orchestral forces, re-
Champs-Elysées, a conductor is someone I believe that the musicians have their own before starting work on me, told me that quires a technique that was not part of his
who finds money, who, by courting sponsor understanding of the truth of a score and he was trained as a car mechanic. Maybe armoury when he started off. And not part
after sponsor, finally finds a way of ensur- that the synergy of their truth and mine can one day I can conduct in a white smock, just of mine either. We come from a world where
ing that the musicians get paid – and that produce interesting results. That is why to take it to its logical conclusion. Would our mentors -- Leonhardt, Harnoncourt –were superb musicians, but where conduct- There is the reality of early music ensem- scale piece, and I would like to get to grips Let’s talk some more about your hunger
ing technique was probably not top priority. bles, where you go calmly into the rehearsal with it. When you conduct Brahms’ German for repertoire.
The starting point was early music, simple room, have a discussion, put the world to Requiem or a Bruckner symphony, you feel
forms, and then Bach, because taking on rights and then try some things out. The a little like a sculptor faced with a huge I mentioned earlier that much Baroque
the B minor Mass without a cast-iron tech- relationship with the musicians is egalitar- block of stone, while with Il combattimento music was originally composed with mass
nique is more or less feasible. But then – in ian. With a modern orchestra, like La Mon- you need to take a more minimalist ap- appeal in mind. Renaissance music, by con-
my career, anyway – comes Beethoven. And naie’s, you basically need to let them play proach – you decide which instruments trast, was aimed at a highly cultured elite.
conducting a work like the Missa solemnis and you listen and make some comments to use, how the continuo will work, how Look at Gesualdo, who wrote music that is
is another matter entirely. It demands a lot after a quarter of an hour. It’s more subtle you will guide the singers. It’s much more harmonically highly sophisticated and set
of work on one’s technique, and I set about than that, of course, but they are two very delicate, like being a watchmaker. Why do to texts – written by the composer himself
that work patiently in order to achieve a different worlds, and I was rather caught a Mozart opera yet again, when his operas – which are also relatively impenetrable.
result of which I wouldn’t be too ashamed. unawares, because the time management have been so well conducted so many times, Baroque music draws on the opposition of
And beyond all that, it’s essential to have needs to be radically different. And then I and when I would love to work on Strauss’s the Reformation and Counter-Reformation.
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the DNA of a musician, an unquenchable wasn’t ready to manage the singers chosen Vier letzte Lieder? I could interpret them in Its entire aim was to prove persuasive to
thirst for beauty and a compulsive desire by La Monnaie – excellent singers, but also a very different way from the great tradition its audience... and if that wasn’t exactly a
to instil that feeling into the instrumental- from a world very different from the one of Schwarzkopf and Szell. It’s not a matter mass audience, then its intended scope was
ists and singers around you. The imperative I was used to. I’m set in my ways to some of doing them better, but of trying to look at still wide. Bach has often been accused of
for beauty is fundamental to practically degree. I like to surround myself with em- them anew. That’s what interests me. writing works that were much too complex
every masterpiece. I adore the story about inently intelligent people like Christoph – The Art of Fugue is probably the most
Brahms and Johann Strauss II, who were Prégardien, Matthias Goerne and Dietrich Verdi and Puccini are magnificent compos- striking example – but some of his con-
meeting up in a cabin deep in the forest. Ap- Henschel, who are not just singers in the ers, but I have nothing to add to what Antonio temporaries were probably just as skilled
proaching the cabin, Strauss heard terrible purely vocal sense, but who think about a Pappano, for instance, has to say about as he was, yet they put all their efforts into
howling amidst the sylvan calm. He thought work thoroughly, from A to Z. It was a chal- them. This might sound pretentious, but at writing epics that anybody could enjoy.
it was an animal in terrible pain, perhaps an lenge for me to leave that comfortable mu- my age I only want to conduct scores that Perhaps, deep down, they would have liked
injured dog, but it turned out to be Brahms, tual understanding behind. And then I was I can express something different about. I to try more ambitious forms. Things very
composing one of his cello sonatas and rather allergic to the production, but then want to find meaning in everything I under- soon reached a kind of saturation point,
bawling to express his emotion. All this mu- I’m allergic to the majority of productions I take. Schumann, for example... I feel I know with very little left for the music to feed
sic is the fruit of a huge amount of effort have encountered. At an earlier point I had him very intimately. I’ve played his sympho- on. I know that, in opera, Handel was able
on the composer’s part, but there is also an conducted Les Indes galantes, directed by nies countless times, I’ve recorded the ora- to achieve a lyrical and dramatic impact
overriding, compulsive sense of urgency in Pier Luigi Pizzi, and the show was rightly torios, as a pianist I have accompanied his that many people admire deeply. I have to
these efforts, and it’s highly contagious if considered a massive failure. songs, and yet I know numerous fine sym- confess that it doesn’t speak to me very
you are a musician. And that is why I think phonic conductors who hardly realise that much and I feel a little dubious when I read
an authoritarian conductor, failing to take Opera is a special world in which music, his oratorios exist. It seems ridiculous to that Beethoven placed Handel immediately
this sense of urgency into consideration, dramaturgy, singers and production co-ex- me to aspire to conducting Schumann when behind Bach as a genius. Handel is a very
would not succeed in getting the best out ist. It is the world of a conductor like René you don’t know him from every angle. It’s fine craftsman when it comes to working
of an orchestra. Jacobs. In particular, he succeeds in estab- like looking at an inexpressibly rich world with simple musical units, and that it prob-
lishing collaborations that he takes pleas- through tiny binoculars. It would be like ably what interested Beethoven. And that is
Talking of conducting technique, what did ure in developing. I prefer symphonic music. playing Bach’s organ music without having also probably why he is so popular today:
you learn from your experience of opera? That’s why, when people ask me if I’d like to heard his cantatas. How much longer can I rhythmically and harmonically it’s nice and
do opera again, I say ‘No’, without hesitation. hope to conduct? Ten years, maybe? I have simple, comfortable, unchallenging, easy
That I was inexperienced. It is not a happy There are so many things that I would really to be selective, to do what I want to do, fo- on the ear. This weariness that I have some-
memory. Bernard Foccroulle, who was di- like to do, with singers too, like Mahler’s cus on what seems essential. With that in times sensed when it comes to a certain
rector of La Monnaie at the time, is an old Lied von der Erde, or Monteverdi. Actually, mind, why would I want to take on opera? facile quality in music is not exclusively as-
friend and he invited me to conduct Mo- Monteverdi could take me back to working sociated with the Baroque repertoire. I’ve
zart’s Idomeneo in 1995. For me it marked in the theatre. Il combattimento di Tancredi often conducted César Franck’s symphony
the transition from one reality to another. e Clorinda is grandly poetic, yet it is a small- – and recorded it too, but I think I prettymuch got the measure of it after giving it year they organise 120 concerts around of the members this created something of Which would allow you to take on Bach
twice in concert. Any musician would agree the world performed by forces of up to 80 a crisis. They had given up their day jobs in with one singer per part.
that it is very fine music, but you don’t lose people. Here’s some historical background order to devote themselves to singing. In
yourself in it. It is not some kind of labyrinth to the Collegium...Its basis was amateurs, the 1960s it was perfectly possible for an When asked, I rarely express my deep con-
that you spend weeks wandering through in some of whom, like me, had studied at the amateur of a certain level to make a living viction on this, which is that I couldn’t give a
amazement. But I have conducted a series of conservatory. There were about 80 of us in from music. But the ensemble could not damn. Or, to express myself more elegantly:
17 performances of the Brahms violin con- all. Things are different today. Now my as- have progressed otherwise. I had to build no matter what the forces are, their sound
certo and found myself literally in a state of sistant, Dominique Verkinderen, auditions our work around vocal personalities who, by must be proportionate with the perform-
amazement after each one. As I said, I have some 500 singers a year, of which maybe their sheer talent, would help us to achieve ing space To put a huge choir in a sacristy
a desire to get down to the essentials. Mu- two are worthy of joining the ensemble. something really exceptional. So the Col- and to deafen the audience makes as little
sic is such a limited form of expression... I The idea is also to find soloists before they legium became an ensemble of soloists, sense of putting six singers in a huge abbey
would so much have liked to be a writer, or get snapped up and stylistically corrupted with some impressive people at its core... where only the first six rows will be able to
to make documentaries. In view of that, it by the system and become too expensive Dorothee Mields, Damien Guillon, Hana hear some scraps of the musical discourse.
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is better not to wall yourself up in a small for us. We have got hold of quite a num- Blažíková, Mark Padmore and the stal- The arguments of the scientific types who,
area of repertoire. This need for adventure ber of members that way. There are many wart Peter Kooij, to name just a few. This having considered the question, advocate
also stems from my fascination with the or- names I could mention, like Sandrine Piau, transformation was only possible because ‘one per part’ never seem totally convincing
chestra as an instrument. It didn’t take long Mark Padmore and even Renaud Machart, we were masters of our own economic fate. to me. Because Bach was active in a society
for me to feel that I had found out as much who has become a journalist. But let me How many orchestras get completely stuck that favoured lavish display. How, then, can
as I needed to about choirs, and even to be- return to the rather unlikely beginnings in a rut because it is impossible to let a mu- you one imagine these works performed by
come slightly allergic to the psychology of of the Collegium. In my street there lived sician go without making astronomically very small forces when there were literally
the vocal ensemble. When I was a teenager, the Verkinderen family. There were three expensive settlements? 80 people at his disposal? In my library I
or perhaps a little later, when I was at uni- daughters, who were all delightful and who have documents supplied to me by the
versity, it was fun. There were girls, you got all sang astonishingly well. I’ve already In certain cases, renowned ensembles find Bach Gesellschaft which list the ages and
to travel, you sang Brahms’ Liebeslieder- mentioned Dominique, who still sings in themselves in trouble, unable to do any- names of the singers who gave the first
Walzer and had a great old time. But the the choir, even though she has never really thing, because they haven’t managed their performances of some of the cantatas.
choir, as an instrument, seems a bit primi- studied singing. So, quite by chance, in my musical forces in a well-informed fashion. These show that there were three or four
tive to me, though I have huge respect for the own street, in my physical milieu, I found You really need to have a determined handle singers per part. Beyond that, it is a ques-
work of amateur choirs, which, in Belgium wonderful, naturally gifted people who on your policy if you are going to dismiss tion of the period and the circumstances
at least, are gradually becoming more of could form the basis of a choir. And that an entire orchestra, like Gerard Mortier did in which the works were produced. ‘Christ
a rarity. When I was young, there was the choir sang very well indeed. In my archives at the Flanders Opera. In France, how many lag in Todesbanden’ BWV4 clearly sounds
Gentse Oratoriumvereniging, a big amateur I have a recording of the St John Passion orchestras swallow up millions of euros to better with a single voice, but if you look
choir that could make a decent job of sing- that I find to be of stunning quality. In the produce a result that, both qualitatively and at the Gloria from the B Minor Mass, with
ing the St Matthew Passion, and there was 1960s we sang Palestrina, Machaut, Bach quantitatively, is pretty anaemic? The vol- the trumpets and timpani let loose, a single
still the Vlaamse Koorfederatie, which had and sometimes even Brahms. But after a ume of concerts is minimal and the quality voice is likely to sound a little thin. And an-
hundreds of members. It was through them time, and becoming ever-more demanding, is generally very low, yet music directors’ other problem with ‘one per part’ is getting
that I discovered the B minor Mass, when I I realised that I was no longer happy with salaries remain as high as ever. The people hold of the soloists. If you decide to go this
was 10 years old or so. the result. Because it was basically an ama- who work at the Collegium now have some- route, then you need to have a very, very
teur organisation, it was just not quite good thing of the mentality of the members of a strong line-up. The world is hardly overrun
What about the Collegium Vocale Gent? enough. I wanted the choir to move forward string quartet: they don’t earn a great deal with singers who are capable of taking this
and I understood that I would not achieve of money, but they have the greatest ambi- on. It’s the same as with a string quartet:
For the last few years I have had the for- that with such a large ensemble. It needed tions for their work. In the Collegium, they if you can’t aspire to near-perfection, then
tune of working with an exceptional team to be reconfigured, which is what we did. are not soloists, and they earn less than it’s not worth bothering. I know that this
– Bert Schreurs, Jens Van Durme, Peter We had already recorded about 60 discs, they do for their work as soloists, but they way of performing excites a lot of people
Van den Borre, Dominique Verkinderen we were well-known, so I slimmed down the have the satisfaction of contributing to an – it’s novel, original, the media like it, and
and Betty Van den Berghe. They form a ensemble while retaining its name, ready enterprise entirely devoted artistic quality. above all it’s much less expensive to put
small, but highly capable team and each for a new beginning. I realise that for some on. But the end result is often disastrous,because the people who attempt it are not contingent become solo singers, while oth- ond violins was a 17-year-old German girl Not with choirs as such, but with the prac-
strong enough musically and expressively. ers develop their careers with permanent who said to me, in a slightly blasé fashion, tice of choral music as conceived today,
Dorothee Mields can do it, Peter Kooij too, vocal ensembles or go on to make their way “I know this music well, I’ve been playing it and perhaps also with engaging so closely
but there must be just five or six people on outside music. Whichever they do, they will since I was young.” That’s quite something with certain composers. I won’t say for the
that level in the whole of Europe – and you have found the experience enriching. This from a 17-year-old. I am fascinated by the umpteenth time that Bach’s music is excit-
need eight. We work with a small ensemble leads us on to the whole question of making level of culture that has been attained at ing, but in that repertoire there really is a
of 10 or 12 singers, with Dorothee Mields a profession of being an instrumentalist or certain times in certain parts of the world. limit to what a choral conductor can bring
as soloist, plus two other sopranos and a singer. We shouldn’t forget that, shortly But whatever the standard reached by an to the musical interpretation. As I was ex-
a small orchestra. It works well as an en- before Mahler came on the scene, a sub- amateur musician, he or she cannot match plaining earlier, it is above all a question
semble, but all you need is for one of them stantial proportion of the Vienna Philhar- what a professional musician can bring in of communicating your ideas, sharing your
to get sick or not to be available, and the monic comprised distinguished members terms of harmony, counterpoint and sheer experience, of opening up routes. Of being
delicate balance is destroyed. One of our of society like lawyers and surgeons, who technical address. With my fully profes- a sort of guide armed with knowledge. But
biggest frustrations is when we organise would take their violins out of their cases to sional ensemble I can dream, year after if you are faced with a Bruckner symphony,
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a tour a year or two in advance, and then, play music at the highest level. In Frankfurt, year, of undertaking certain projects. something can take shape very palpably. I
at a few months’ notice, one of the singers the audience is so musical that they de- really feel I can bring something personal
pulls out because he or she has been offered cided to form an orchestra – made up of Which are...? to it. I need to be realistic about my role
a much more lucrative opera engagement. subscribers to orchestral concerts. Can you in certain areas of repertoire and the lim-
It’s enough to make you tear your hair out. imagine? And this orchestra of subscribers To record a series of important works, or- its to which it is subject. When I conduct
But I’d rather face the problems of a small ended up recording a Brahms symphony atorios essentially, under optimum condi- Gesualdo, I feel like a winemaker who has
ensemble than a large ensemble. How can under Celibidache. Sadly it’s a private tape, tions. There are a lot of recordings on the chosen his grape and his vineyard and then
you keep your cool when the first thing you but to aim for such a high level, you need to market that were made by amateur choirs just leaves the miracle to occur. In practice,
get asked when you arrive at a rehearsal is be part of a very cultured society. Also in or uninspired conductors. Something that with my team, we choose the best singers,
if there is some way of shortening the sec- Germany, I have been put up for the night motivates me, and I still want to achieve, is I provide some pointers on style, I help
ond rehearsal session. I don’t want any of by someone local after the concert and my to bring a more surgical meticulousness, a them to make sense of any exceptionally
that going on with my ensemble. Not at any hosts have performed string quartets in my more informed approach to certain works complicated passages, but if the music
price. That’s why we audition 500 singers a honour. String quartets! that have not been worthily represented – does not comes from the singers, there is
year, so the ensemble comes into contact at least as I see it. Recently we have been nothing I can do to make it emerge. They
with a succession of new talent. And for the And in Leipzig there is an amazing amount doing a lot of work on Dvořák (the Stabat are the sole source of the miracle. I can
young people we work with it’s an opportu- of amateur music going on. I’ve often had Mater and the Requiem), but there are still throw my arms in every direction, put an
nity to tour with a respected ensemble, to the privilege of directing the Gewandhaus some very interesting works to be explored. inspired expression on my face, point with
travel, to be paid properly and to be guar- Orchestra, thanks to the friendship and I would like to reconnect with the great cho- my finger, but all that will change very little
anteed a number of projects per seasons – I trust of Kurt Masur. It is particularly mov- ral tradition, the tradition of Brahms and about the music. No-one else can sing the
think that it both motivates them and pro- ing to conduct the complete Schumann Bruckner, who were both choral conduc- [German] word ‘Seele’ [soul] like Dorothy
vides training for them. It helps to preclude symphonies from the podium where the tors. I’d like to adapt our ensemble to the Mields. She has the colour in her voice, she
any sense of routine and its demotivating composer himself stood. Or to conduct repertoire, rather than vice versa, choosing knows the music intimately, but above all
consequences. Together, we handle a very Mendelssohn just a few metres from the the singers with the greatest of care – like her own soul can resonate with the word.
broad repertoire, from Haydn, Beethoven composer’s house. In the auditorium you instruments – with the aim of bringing a This is a demonstration of the autonomy of
and Schumann to contemporary music. I can sense that 80 per cent of the people in very specific colour to the scores in as id- the singer, whose existence is not depend-
conduct about half the projects and invite the audience have been playing this music iomatic a rendition as possible. This is what ent upon the choral conductor. But things
guest conductors for the others, such as since they were at school... that this music makes my job really exciting. It makes me become more complicated with Gesualdo.
Reinbert de Leeuw, who recorded an excel- has accompanied these men and women for think of a chef who ceaselessly searches for You need to be a little neurotic if you are to
lent Janáček disc with us. After a period of many, many years and through different the best ingredients and for ways of bring- be in sympathy with this music. In that con-
four years,the young singers leave the en- stages of their lives. It means that they lis- ing them harmoniously together. text, I am the one who triggers the shared
semble to make way for others. It’s a sort of ten in a very different way. I remember con- neuroses. It’s not politically correct to say
academy that is based on a non-dogmatic ducting Mahler 1 with the Champs-Elysées’ But earlier you expressed a certain so, but I think that our souls must be able
moral contract. Afterwards, some of the youth orchestra some years ago. In the sec- weariness with choirs... to resonate with the scores we are advocat-You can also read
