HOUSE OF KEYS OFFICIAL REPORT - Tynwald
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HOUSE OF KEYS
OFFICIAL REPORT
RECORTYS OIKOIL
Y CHIARE AS FEED
PROCEEDINGS
DAALTYN
HANSARD
Douglas, Tuesday, 10th March 2020
All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website:
www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard
Supplementary material provided subsequent to a sitting is also published to the website as a
Hansard Appendix. Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may
be consulted on application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office.
Volume 137, No. 13
ISSN 1742-2264
Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings,
Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © Court of Tynwald, 2020HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
Present:
The Speaker (Hon. J P Watterson) (Rushen);
Mr J R Moorhouse and Hon. G D Cregeen (Arbory, Castletown and Malew);
Hon. A L Cannan and Mr T S Baker (Ayre and Michael);
Hon. C C Thomas and Mrs C A Corlett (Douglas Central);
Mrs C L Barber and Mr C R Robertshaw (Douglas East);
Hon. D J Ashford and Mr G R Peake (Douglas North);
Miss K J Costain (Douglas South);
Mr M J Perkins and Mrs D H P Caine (Garff);
Hon. R K Harmer and Hon. G G Boot (Glenfaba and Peel);
Mr W C Shimmins (Middle);
Mr R E Callister and Ms J M Edge (Onchan);
Hon. A J Allinson and Mr L L Hooper (Ramsey);
Hon. L D Skelly (Rushen);
with Mr R I S Phillips, Secretary of the House.
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582 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
Business transacted
Tribute to former Member, Mr Samuel Lionel Morrey ................................................................ 585
1. Commonwealth Day Message ......................................................................................... 586
Commonwealth Day Message from Her Majesty the Queen ............................................... 586
Questions of Urgent Public Importance .............................................................................. 586
1. Flybe collapse – Statement ............................................................................................... 586
2. Flybe collapse – Impact on Patient Transfer Service......................................................... 590
3. Flybe collapse – Outstanding money due to the Government ......................................... 592
4. Flybe collapse – Support for former employees ............................................................... 593
5. Flybe pension scheme – On-Island registration and implications of collapse .................. 595
2. Questions for Oral Answer.............................................................................................. 597
2.1. Island’s Fairtrade status – Protecting and developing ................................................... 597
2.2. MiCard benefit or pension collection – Alternatives considered .................................. 598
2.3. Free school meals – Assessing entitlement ................................................................... 599
2.4. MiCard benefit or pension collection – Alternative or additional server partners
approached ........................................................................................................................... 600
2.5. Bus route amendments – Prior impact assessment and public consultation ................ 601
2.6. Public sector pay harmonisation – Impact on private, third sector and not-for-profit
organisations ......................................................................................................................... 605
2.7. Serious incidents in schools – Policy .............................................................................. 606
2.8. Wood processed by DEFA – Amount sold to domestic users in 2019 ........................... 608
2.9. Ballasalla Post Office – Plans if no one operates the adapted services ......................... 610
3. Questions for Written Answer ........................................................................................ 612
3.1. Cycle to work scheme – Cost, utilisation and resultant cycling increase ....................... 612
3.2. Isle of Man Government employee sickness – Details per Department,
Office and Board ................................................................................................................... 612
3.3. Retail businesses – Number receiving DfE support and closed in last five years .......... 614
3.4. King William’s College – DESC funding details ............................................................... 615
3.5. Peel marina dredging – Annual cost in last eight years ................................................. 615
3.6. Sub-post offices in last 10 years – Number operating, average community
payment and payment by transactions ................................................................................ 616
3.7. MiCard services – Alternative delivery methods considered, approved or not and
reasons .................................................................................................................................. 616
Order of the Day ................................................................................................................ 617
Bills for First Reading ................................................................................................................ 617
4.1. Road Traffic Legislation (Amendment) Bill 2020; 4.2. Elections (Keys and Local
Authorities) Bill 2020............................................................................................................. 617
5.1. Bank (Recovery and Resolution) Bill 2020 – Clauses considered ................................... 617
The House adjourned at 11.52 a.m. ...................................................................................... 629
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583 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
PAGE LEFT DELIBERATELY BLANK
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584 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
House of Keys
The House met at 10 a.m.
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
The Speaker: Moghrey mie, good morning, Hon. Members.
Members: Moghrey mie, good morning, Mr Speaker.
5
The Speaker: I call on the Chaplain to lead us in prayer.
PRAYERS
The Speaker
Tribute to former Member, Mr Samuel Lionel Morrey
The Speaker: Hon. Members, I am sorry to report the passing of Mr Samuel Lionel Morrey,
Member of the House of Keys for Ayre from 1985 to 1986.
Lionel’s family came to the Isle of Man from Staffordshire in 1954 and bred pedigree
10 Landrace pigs. He settled here in 1971, and threw himself into agricultural life on the Island as
part of the National Farmers’ Union Council.
When Norman Radcliffe was elected to the Legislative Council, Lionel was elected as Member
for Ayre, being sworn in on the same day as Peter Karran and David Cretney. His maiden speech
was on the Budget when he expressed concern that motor taxes would hit the poorer end of the
15 community and said the Island’s progress had outstripped the present system of government,
calling for rationalisation.
When Ayre went from a two-seat to a single-seat constituency in 1986, he deferred to his
constituency colleague, Mrs Christian, and stood instead in Ramsey, where he came third in a
seven way race behind Allan Bell and Brigadier Norman Butler. He tried again in Michael in 1991,
20 but it was not to be.
I have on behalf of the House conveyed our sympathies to his widow, Kathleen, and his
family. I would ask that Members stand in silent tribute to the loss of our former Member,
Lionel Morrey.
Members stood in silence.
The Speaker: Thank you, Hon. Members.
________________________________________________________________________
585 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
1. Commonwealth Day Message
Commonwealth Day Message from Her Majesty the Queen
25 The Speaker: We turn now to our Order Paper and the first Item of business is the
Commonwealth Day Message from Her Majesty the Queen:
On Commonwealth occasions, it is always inspiring to be reminded of the diversity of the people
and countries that make up our worldwide family. We are made aware of the many associations
and influences that combine through Commonwealth connection, helping us to imagine and
deliver a common future.
This is particularly striking when we see people from nations, large and small, gathering for the
Commonwealth Games, for meetings of Commonwealth governments, and on Commonwealth
Day. Such a blend of traditions serves to make us stronger, individually and collectively, by
providing the ingredients needed for social, political and economic resilience.
Throughout my life, I have had the opportunity to see and hear how membership of the
Commonwealth family means so much to those living in all parts of the world, often in places
that are quite remote. Advances in technology and modern media have now enabled many
more people to witness and enjoy – with remarkable immediacy – this experience of
Commonwealth connection, in areas such as education, medicine and conservation.
Looking to the future, this connectivity means we are also aware, perhaps as never before, that
wherever we live, our choices and actions affect the well-being of people and communities living
far away, and in very different circumstances. For many, this awareness awakens a desire to
employ our planet’s natural resources with greater care, and it is encouraging to see how the
countries of the Commonwealth continue to devise new ways of working together to achieve
prosperity, whilst protecting our planet.
As members of this very special community, on this Commonwealth Day, I hope that the people
and countries of the Commonwealth will be inspired by all that we share, and move forward
with fresh resolve to enhance the Commonwealth’s influence for good in our world.
Elizabeth R, Buckingham Palace.
Questions of Urgent Public Importance
INFRASTRUCTURE
1. Flybe collapse –
Statement
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Callister) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
If he will make a statement on the collapse of the airline Flybe?
The Speaker: We now turn to Urgent Questions, Hon. Members.
The order was provided to you yesterday, and in that sense we turn to Urgent Question 1,
and I call on the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Callister to ask a Question of the Minister for
30 Infrastructure.
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586 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Can I ask the Minister for Infrastructure if he will make a statement on the collapse of the
airline Flybe?
35 The Speaker: I call on the Minister for Infrastructure to reply.
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): Mr Speaker, I am happy to make a brief
statement, although I will concentrate more on what we are doing going forward than about the
collapse of Flybe. I hope that this is what Hon. Members wish to hear. (A Member: Hear, hear.)
40 The Island is not responsible for the loss of Flybe services. Flybe has served us well for many
years, and its collapse is sad for its staff and its customers.
Flybe’s core Manx routes to and from Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham were
successful. The Liverpool operation benefited from the regular movement of patients attending
medical appointments. The Manchester route was reported in the media to be the eighth best
45 performing route on the Flybe network. Birmingham was regularly a busy route and Flybe
officers reported to us that the yield remained sound.
Flybe had survived a dip that had led to the sale of the company to new investors and trading
problems that led to the UK government support. However, concerns in the industry over the
effect of coronavirus on travel margins and about the airline’s ability to keep trading, led to it
50 entering administration on Thursday, 5th March.
I can tell you that my officers and I have been working night and day since then to find a new
operator for these routes. As a result, I am pleased to announce that from Thursday this week
Loganair will operate a twice daily scheduled service to Liverpool. This service will operate seven
days a week.
55 This is an interim solution while negotiations continue about the future of these routes.
Loganair already operate from the Island to Edinburgh and operate the London City route for BA.
I have put Liverpool top of the list of destinations, even though EasyJet also operate the route,
because of the needs of the Patient Transfer Service.
I know that lots of people have been affected by Flybe’s collapse and that many people have
60 lost out on trips and are having to make alternative arrangements. Despite this, I think we need
to put the needs of those travelling to and from medical appointments first. That means we
have pre-booked seats each day for patients who will be contacted by the Patient Transfer team
with information about their appointments. The remaining tickets will be available on the
Loganair website.
65 I realise that many people rely on the Manchester and Birmingham routes. I am pleased to
say a number of airlines are interested in these routes. However, this is a nervous time in the
aviation industry and, having met the chairman of one airline myself this weekend, I can tell you
there is a real fear that coronavirus, or more properly the fear of coronavirus, will destroy
airlines and their routes. Whilst I would have been normally very bullish about the ability of our
70 busy routes to attract a new operator, the industry fear of coronavirus means that I am simply
optimistic.
I know that many of us need to travel and many of us need to travel regularly. I do not think
we are afraid of travelling to the UK, so I can tell you that my Department is working with
airlines and that we will make an announcement as soon as something is agreed. I am very
75 hopeful that this will be in the next week or so.
Two Members: Hear, hear.
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Callister.
80
Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I thank the Minister for his positive statement
today, especially on the Liverpool route.
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587 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
Can I ask the Minister has he got any timescale of when the Birmingham and the Manchester
routes may be back up and running again? Because they are so key to the Isle of Man.
85 It is worth mentioning that our friends in Jersey, Blue Islands airline stepped in within two
days to secure two routes and Loganair have stepped in within 24 hours or 48 hours to secure
another route into the Channel Islands. So when will we get the Birmingham and Manchester
routes back on line?
90 The Speaker: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you.
As I have mentioned, we are in very good discussions. They are at an advanced stage with a
number of airlines, and I hope to make an announcement in the next week or so.
95
The Speaker: Thank you.
Further supplementary, Mr Callister.
Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
100 I fully understand airline yield and how it works in respect of less seats, higher cost etc. but
with so few seats available on Gatwick and Liverpool at the moment, in the short-term, can I ask
the Minister what discussions he and his Department have had with EasyJet to look at the yield
prices, especially during this difficult period?
105 The Speaker: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
My officers are talking to a number of airlines. Obviously at this point all those discussions
are confidential, but I can assure this House that we are working day and night on all of these
110 issues and we are well aware of the impact that this is having.
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
115 I would like to thank the Minister for his very positive news about the Liverpool route. One
thing he did not really talk about in his statement was the potential human impact of the
changes to flights. There are a significantly reduced number of flights now coming out of the
airports. Is he able to comment on any potential impact this is going to have on staff at the
Airport, specifically any of those staff who are on zero-hours contracts?
120
The Speaker: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you.
I do not have that information about zero-hours contracts but I will come back to the
125 Member on that.
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
130 I just wonder if the Minister could confirm what times the flights will be that he has secured
with Loganair?
The Speaker: Minister.
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588 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
135 The Minister: Thank you.
As far as I am aware, it will operate two operations and this will then hopefully go up to a
third. Firstly in the morning and then coming back later on in the evening, I do not have exact
times, but in the morning and in the evening.
140 The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Robertshaw.
Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I join other Members in expressing pleasure in the efforts that the Minister’s Department are
putting in at the present time. But just reflecting on the comment made by one of the airlines in
145 discussion with him at the moment, having expressed concerns about the impact of starting up
with coronavirus in front of us, as it were. Could the Minister assure me that Council of Ministers
are very well aware of the perfect storm that hoteliers in my constituency currently are subject
to in the sense that they have got the problems with the Promenade, they have got concerns
and a slowdown in bookings as a result of coronavirus, and the impact of the loss of Flybe. On
150 top of that they also have a slowdown in deposit taking going forward because of the very
uncertainty that the Minister has spoken –
The Speaker: Question?
155 Mr Robertshaw: Could he please reassure me that the Council of Ministers are extremely
aware of the sensitivity in this area?
The Speaker: Minister to reply.
160 The Minister: Thank you.
I do not think I am speaking out of turn, but the Council of Ministers are already meeting
around these subjects and have this at the utmost urgency.
The Speaker: Mr Callister.
165
Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Can I just ask the Minister if he still has confidence in the Island’s open sky policy?
The Speaker: Minister to reply.
170
The Minister: Thank you.
With all events we always need to reflect and review. At this point we are looking at restoring
routes. What I would just comment on, particularly about the open skies, had we been in closed
skies it is around protecting the incumbent and the problem with that is, say we had protected
175 the skies around the north west with Flybe, we would not have had alternatives and we would
have taken perhaps six months to actually achieve an alternative, therefore making the situation
much worse.
I think there is always an opportunity to reflect on things, but I just want to make the House
aware of the significant problems that can cause.
180
The Speaker: Final supplementary, Miss Costain.
Miss Costain: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and again, I congratulate the Minister on moving
quickly and trying to get this resolved.
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589 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
185 There was obviously a contingency plan in place prior to the collapse of Flybe. Could he tell
the House whether the coronavirus, and any other events, have affected the contingency plan,
or is he nearly just now carrying out the contingency plan as it already was?
The Speaker: Minister.
190
The Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
We are ready and waiting and looking at alternatives, should certain things arise and as
things become clear. However, unfortunately coronavirus has had a massive impact on
confidence – or rather the fear of coronavirus – not necessarily the virus itself but the fear of it
195 has made those conversations much more difficult because of businesses not wishing to invest
in those sort of scenarios.
HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE
2. Flybe collapse –
Impact on Patient Transfer Service
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Callister) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
If he will make a statement on the impact of the collapse of the airline Flybe on the Patient
Transfer Service?
The Speaker: Urgent Question 2, again I call on the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Callister.
Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
200 Can I ask the Health Minister if he will make a statement on the impact of the collapse of the
Flybe airline in relation to the Patient Transfer Service?
The Speaker: I call on the Minister for Health and Social Care to reply.
205 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Flybe has offered a great service to Isle of Man patients who needed to attend hospital
appointments in the UK, and I was very sorry to hear the announcement of its collapse last
week.
The Department of Health and Social Care Patient Transfer contract provides a significant
210 number of flight bookings and the Government, as has already been heard, Mr Speaker, is in
negotiations in continuing the routes. Also, we have just had the announcement about the
Liverpool route with Loganair, which I would like to thank DoI for working very closely with the
Department of Health and Social Care to resolve.
The Patient Transfer office has been advising patients who were due to travel late last week
215 and early this week on a daily basis regarding cancellation of flights and rebooking of hospital
appointments and travel. The Patient Transfer office extended opening hours late last week and
over the weekend period to ensure all patients who were due to travel imminently are fully
updated. Any patient contacted who raises immediate clinical concerns are being referred to
clinical professionals for assessment. We will continue to work collectively with other
220 Government Departments, including DoI, and we look forward to working with Loganair to get
service resumed.
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Callister.
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590 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
225 Can I ask the Minister how many patient transfer passengers have travelled using the Steam
Packet in the last week?
The Speaker: Minister to reply.
230 The Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I believe the number is around about 60 that have travelled using the Steam Packet, in one
form or another.
One of the things I do want to put on record is I would like to take the opportunity to thank
the Patient Transfer staff, who have worked exceptionally hard over the last few days, over the
235 extended hours, in order to get things rebooked and ensure that the contingency plans that the
Department had in place, the three phases of those contingencies, have worked as expected.
Two Members: Hear, hear.
240 The Speaker: Supplementary question, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I am just wondering if the Minister could provide some confidence: there were a number of
times that patients had to be put onto the Manchester route because the Liverpool route was
245 full when they arrived at the Airport – can the Minister provide confidence to the Manx public
that the patients will be the first to receive a seat on the Loganair service?
The Speaker: Minister to reply.
250 The Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I think the Minister for the Department of Infrastructure has already stated that in terms of
his Answer, where he has stated that there will be certain number of seats reserved for patient
transfer.
255 The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
Some of the advice that was put out at the start of this by Patient Transfers was for patients
travelling immediately to book flights themselves and then recover the cost later on, further
260 down the line. There are a number of people who have contacted me who are finding difficulty
with that process. I just wonder if the Minister could please comment on what support is
available for people who find themselves in financial difficulty who cannot then afford to book
and then reclaim. Will the Department be providing costs for that upfront?
265 The Speaker: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Mr Speaker, I need to be very clear on that advice: the advice was that anyone
who wished to book their own accommodation or travel could do so. Obviously if anyone is not
in that position, Patient Transfer was not going to turn around to anyone – and did not turn
270 round to anyone – and refuse to book it on their behalf. Anyone who contacted Patient Transfer
to arrange the travel and accommodation has had it done so, to the best of my knowledge.
Several patients though I must say, Mr Speaker, have been on to me and actually said they
prefer the arrangement whereby they book their own and then reclaim it back, which I found
quite interesting.
275
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591 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Callister.
Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I think my question may have been answered in part but I will ask it anyway: back in June
280 2019 in this House, the Minister said that in exceptional circumstances his Department would
arrange direct payment to accommodation providers in advance where a patient is unable to
secure affordable accommodation. Therefore can I ask the Minister just to reconfirm that that
policy still remains in place?
285 The Speaker: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Not only does the policy remain in place, but Patient Transfer has been block booking
accommodation.
290
Mr Callister: Thank you.
TREASURY
3. Flybe collapse –
Outstanding money due to the Government
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Callister) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
How much outstanding money is due to the Isle of Man Government from the airline Flybe?
The Speaker: Urgent Question 3, I call on the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Callister.
Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
295 Can I ask the Treasury Minister how much outstanding money is due to the Isle of Man
Government from the airline Flybe?
The Speaker: I call on the Treasury Minister to reply.
300 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I am unable to provide an exact figure for moneys owed by Flybe to the Isle of Man
Government at this precise point. Customs and Excise are currently awaiting the submission of
the most recent return from Flybe in respect of Air Passenger Duty. Flybe submitted and paid
the January return in full, for the period 1st to 31st January, and their February return is not due
305 for filing until 20th March.
I am, however, aware that £303,245.16 is due and owing to the Department of Infrastructure
for the payment of landing fees.
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Callister.
310
Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Can I ask the Treasury Minister to provide Members with an update when that information is
available?
315 The Speaker: Minister to reply.
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592 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
The Minister: I will indeed, Mr Speaker. If it is helpful for the Hon. Member and for others,
the APD return for January which was paid in full was £155,577.
I will let this Hon. House know in due course of any further outstanding debts.
320 The Speaker: Supplementary question, Miss Costain.
Miss Costain: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
With regard to the outstanding landing fees, is Treasury able to seize an asset or put a lien on
anything to secure the outstanding moneys? Has any action similar to that taken place?
325
The Speaker: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Mr Speaker, indeed, the information I have is that the Department of
Infrastructure have in fact placed a lien on a Flybe-operated aircraft, in effect arresting it until
330 outstanding amounts are paid.
A Bombardier Dash 8 aircraft, which is the aircraft in question, has a replacement value of
around £25 million and a book value of about £4 million; so I hope, Mr Speaker, that we should
indeed get our money that is owed.
335 The Speaker: Supplementary question, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I just wonder if the Minister’s Department has looked at any other contracts that the
Government may have had with Flybe, particularly with regard to advertising by Visit Isle of
340 Man, etc. and payments up front. The Minister perhaps will not have that information with him
today, but can he circulate any information of other contracts that Government perhaps have
paid Flybe for.
The Speaker: Minister to reply.
345
The Minister: If it emerges, Mr Speaker, that there are other debts owing, then I will certainly
be happy to inform the House.
4. Flybe collapse –
Support for former employees
The Hon. Member for Garff (Mr Perkins) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
What support or re-employment opportunities is his Department able to offer former Flybe
employees?
The Speaker: Urgent Question 4, I call on the Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Perkins.
350 Mr Perkins: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I would like to ask the Treasury Minister, what support or re-employment opportunities is his
Department able to offer the former Flybe employees?
The Speaker: I call on the Treasury Minister to reply.
355
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593 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr Speaker, I am sure all Hon. Members share
my deep disappointment and concern regarding the recent announcement of the cessation of
Flybe’s operations. Our thoughts are very much with those people affected.
As soon as the announcement was made last Thursday, 5th March, the Manx Industrial
360 Relations Service invited officers from the Social Security Benefits and the JobCentre to attend a
meeting with the Flybe staff.
During the meeting, the Flybe staff were advised of their employment rights and how to
make a claim to the Manx National Insurance Fund for the debts that their employer is unable to
meet. Most staff were able to submit their claims during this meeting, which are now being
365 processed by Treasury officers. They were also made aware of the availability of relevant social
security benefits and the range of services available at the JobCentre. Officers remained behind
after the meeting to discuss individual circumstances on a one-to-one basis, and indeed, to
answer any questions.
It is too early to know the specific interventions or support that will be required by former
370 Flybe employees, but the JobCentre advisory team are available to discuss individual
circumstances, skills and experience and to provide advice, guidance and information regarding
future employment.
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Perkins.
375
Mr Perkins: I thank the Minister for his comprehensive reply, and I am glad that we are
supporting these employees because many of them have been employed on Isle of Man routes
right through from the Manx Airlines days and at their time of life, they will not find it easy to
regain employment, so I am glad we are supporting them in that respect.
380 Having said that, they are a wealth of resource that we should be able to use to generate
some new routes on the Island; so hopefully with the negotiations we are having, they would be
given first consideration over other pilots.
Would the Minister consider working with the DfE and the DOI to explore the possibility of
forming some sort of partnership with an airline, to ensure that we can secure our vital routes?
385
The Speaker: Minister.
The Minister: I am not really quite sure what the Hon. Member is driving at. In terms of
securing routes, that is a matter for the Department of Infrastructure. You have had
390 reassurances this morning from the Minister, that they are treating this with the utmost
urgency.
I think the critical first point is to secure those routes. If there are subsequent opportunities
for Flybe staff to be gainfully employed around that new proposal, whatever is brought forward,
then I would hope that that is acted upon; and of course, my Department and the JobCentre will
395 remain alert to any opportunities that may present itself as a result of any announcement that is
forthcoming.
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Moorhouse.
400 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Does the Minister have an indication of how many people are affected?
The Speaker: Minister to reply.
405 The Minister: Mr Speaker, I understand approximately 12 staff from Flybe attended the
meeting on 5th March.
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594 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
CHIEF MINISTER
5. Flybe pension scheme –
On-Island registration and implications of collapse
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Chief Minister:
Whether the Flybe pension scheme is registered on the Island; what the implications of the
collapse of the airline are for members of the scheme; and if he will make a statement?
The Speaker: Question 5, I call on the Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew,
Mr Moorhouse.
410 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I would like to ask the Chief Minister whether the Flybe pension scheme is registered on the
Island; what the implications of the collapse of the airline are for members of the scheme; and if
he will make a statement?
415 The Speaker: I call on the Chief Minister to reply.
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
The British Regional Airlines Group Pension Scheme, known as ‘the scheme’, is registered and
regulated by the Isle of Man Financial Services Authority as an authorised scheme under the
420 Retirement Benefits Schemes Act 2000.
The scheme was originally established by Manx Airlines, in 1983, for its Isle of Man
operations. As its business developed UK interests, UK members were added to the scheme.
Consequently it is both a tax-approved scheme in the Isle of Man, in respect of its Isle of Man
members, and a United Kingdom registered pension scheme, under the UK Finance Act 2006, in
425 respect of UK members. The scheme is therefore also regulated by the UK’s pension regulator.
The scheme is not eligible to participate in the UK’s Pension Protection Fund (PPF).
Participation in the PPF is governed by UK law, which precludes the scheme from participating in
the PPF if its main place of administration is not in the United Kingdom.
The outcome for individual members is yet to be determined, and is dependent upon a
430 variety of factors. The trustees of the pension plan and their advisers are working to assess the
individual member impact and the next steps for the plan.
The scheme was established under an irrevocable trust, which was a fundamental
requirement for registration, and that the assets in the scheme were wholly separate from the
company and any creditors, and in consequence had not been lost to the members.
435 Notwithstanding, the last actuarial valuation, which assesses the fund’s status on the plan,
conducted as at 31st December 2018, indicates the scheme is in a deficit position.
The plan had been funded in accordance with UK funding requirements, and we understand
that the sponsoring employer has continued to meet the funding requirements in respect of this
deficit up until the end of February 2020. The next payment is due at the end of March, and with
440 Flybe now in administration, the future of the plan and its funding is less certain.
As at this date, the pension scheme has not been terminated and is not as yet being wound
up. However, this is a fluid situation and can change quite quickly, depending upon the outcome
of the legal proceedings in respect of Flybe.
If it is declared insolvent, and obviously the decision is of the trustees … Now, I have been
445 assured by the FSA that they continue to work closely with the trustees, and the UK pension
regulator, to understand the impact of the Flybe administration and that the members of the
plan are being kept apprised of developments as they emerge.
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595 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Moorhouse.
450
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and thank you, Chief Minister, for such a detailed
Answer.
Are the figures currently available to show how many people there are affected? How many
of these individuals live on the Island and how many Island residents currently receive a pension
455 from the scheme?
The Speaker: Chief Minister to reply.
The Chief Minister: I am sorry, Mr Speaker. I do not have that information at this moment in
460 time but I will of course circulate it – obviously it may well be confidential information. The
scheme is not an Isle of Government scheme, it is an independent scheme, and therefore if I am
allowed to circulate the information, and I can get my hands on it, I will of course circulate it to
all Hon. Members.
465 The Speaker: Supplementary question, Miss Costain.
Miss Costain: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I just wonder if the Chief Minister could give a bit more information about the deficit on the
pension scheme, which I think he said was paid by the employer up to February 2020. Was there
470 any sort of formal guarantee by the employer that they would continue to fund any deficit? I
suppose, if not, why wasn’t there? But, if so, where would that rank in the list of creditors when
it eventually gets resolved?
The Speaker: Chief Minister.
475
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
And if I can remind all Hon. Members that this is not a Government scheme, and therefore I
am reliant on the information given to me. But this is information that is in the public domain so
I am confident I can read it out to you regarding the funding of the scheme:
Connect Airways has engaged with the Trustee to discuss ongoing scheme funding following the Acquisition,
480 This is when obviously it was bought out by Connect Airways:
and has agreed in principle to a package of measures which will increase employer contributions, and is designed
in the view of Connect Airways and the Trustee to provide sustainable funding for the BRAG post Acquisition and
eliminate the Scheme’s deficit over time. In particular it has been agreed in principle:
(a) to bring forward the BRAG’s actuarial valuation –
And I should say a BRAG, for those who did not listen to my earlier speeches, is the British
Regional Airlines Group.
– to bring forward the BRAG’s actuarial valuation from 31 March 2019 to 31 December 2018 in order that a new
schedule of contributions and recovery plan may be put in place within good time following the Acquisition;
(b) that contributions payable by Flybe Limited to the BRAG for the first three years following the effective date of
the new schedule of contributions and recovery plan will increase to £3 million per annum, with payments of at
least £4.5 million per annum in the following years of the recovery plan (in both cases payable in equal monthly
instalments);
(c) that Connect Airways will guarantee the payment of the first three years of employer contributions (£9 million)
into the BRAG; and
(d) that the Scheme will have the benefit of a first ranking charge over a property post-completion of the
Acquisition.
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596 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
Now, obviously, Hon. Members, these are details for the pension management to take into
account and deal with and therefore any further information or discussion, really, is all
485 hypothetical.
The Speaker: Thank you very much.
That brings us to the end of our Urgent Questions.
2. Questions for Oral Answer
CHIEF MINISTER
2.1. Island’s Fairtrade status –
Protecting and developing
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Chief Minister:
How the Government is protecting and developing the Island’s Fairtrade status?
The Speaker: We then turn to our Order Paper, and regular Question Time.
490 We then turn to Question 1, Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew,
Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I would like to ask the Chief Minister, how the Government is protecting and developing the
495 Island’s Fairtrade status?
The Speaker: I call on Chief Minister to reply.
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I thank the Hon. Member for his
500 Question.
I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate the Answer from a previous Question raised
in December 2018, regarding our commitments to Fairtrade.
Whilst the Government has no plans to develop the initiative further internally, our efforts
are best focused on supporting the existing third sector body co-ordinating the Island’s efforts
505 and is committed to continue doing so in the future. The One World Centre, a development
education centre based on the Island, is the recipient of the Isle of Man Government’s
international global development, education and awareness grants.
The funding from the grant enables the One World Centre to deliver a programme of
activities, events and initiatives, to reinforce the concept of Fairtrade and other educational
510 work across the Island.
Our Fairtrade Island status renewal is due in December 2020, and we will continue to engage
with the One World Centre, to identify the steps required to maintain our status.
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Moorhouse.
515
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and thank you, Chief Minister, for such a detailed
and reassuring Answer.
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597 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
In terms of going forward, does the Government recognise the potential value for the Island’s
economy of retaining this Fairtrade status?
520
The Speaker: The Chief Minister to reply.
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I thank the Hon. Member for the question.
Yes, I am sure there will be values to the Island, but it is equally as important that we help
525 those countries that are less fortunate than ourselves, to ensure that the people producing the
product get a fair price for their product and get a fair return on their day’s work. Whilst I can
see benefits for the Island, I am more concerned about the people under those circumstances,
who are not receiving a fair price for the work that they do.
530 A Member: Hear, hear.
TREASURY
2.2. MiCard benefit or pension collection –
Alternatives considered
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
What alternatives to MiCard have been considered in respect of benefit or pension collection?
The Speaker: Question 2, I call on the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I would like to ask the Minister for the Treasury what alternatives to MiCard have been
535 considered in respect of benefit or pension collection?
The Speaker: Treasury Minister to reply.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Thank you, Mr Speaker.
540 I can confirm that no alternatives to MiCard have been considered in respect of benefit or
pension collection and that, due to competing priorities, this piece of work has not yet started in
earnest, but will be completed by June 2021.
MiCard is a brand which belongs to the Isle of Man Post Office and, as Hon. Members are
aware, the Post Office has formally agreed to provide MiCard services to the Treasury until
545 31st December 2022.
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I would like to thank the Treasury Minister for that
550 Answer.
Really, what I am trying to get at here is the MiCard itself has quite a wide range of
functionality, there are a wide range of other cards in use across the Government estate, and I
am aware of a previous Answer given by the Hon. Member for Douglas Central, the Minister for
Policy and Reform, in respect of the consolidation of those numbers of cards.
555 And, really, the question I am asking the Treasury Minister now is will his review of the
MiCard itself actually fall into that wider review of the Government consolidation of cards across
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598 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
the entire estate, to try and actually get us down to maybe one or two cards, instead of the 50
or 60 we have at the moment?
560 The Speaker: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Can I suggest, Mr Speaker, if that is the question he really wants answering,
that is the question he actually puts down on the paper, so that I am in a proper position to
answer it.
565 As I have said, Mr Speaker, we will not complete that piece of work, and we are not expected
to complete that piece of work, until June 2021.
2.3. Free school meals –
Assessing entitlement
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for
the Treasury:
How entitlement to free school meals is assessed?
The Speaker: Question 3, I call on the Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew,
Mr Moorhouse.
570 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I would like to ask the Treasury Minister, how entitlement for free school meals is assessed?
The Speaker: I call on the Treasury Minister to reply.
575 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr Speaker, under a longstanding arrangement,
free school meals are available to children whose parents are on a low to moderate income and
are entitled to an income-related social security benefit.
Those benefits are Income Support, Employed Person’s Allowance and income-based
Jobseeker’s Allowance.
580
The Speaker: Mr Moorhouse, supplementary question.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and thank you, Minister.
In terms the benefits outlined; if a couple were to separate and the child was to live with
585 both parents 50/50% of the time, and one of the parents was actually on one of those benefits,
will the child automatically receive this support?
The Speaker: Treasury Minister to reply – good luck!
590 The Minister: As far as I am aware, Mr Speaker, the answer to that question is yes, but I will
check, because I am sure that there would have to be other circumstances that would need to
be taken into account.
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Dr Allinson.
595
Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
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599 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
Would the Treasury Minister agree with me that actually the education system would step in,
in such cases, to help out parents who are perhaps struggling because of separation, and do the
best job they could for the child?
600
The Speaker: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Well, I am pleased to be able to support the new Minister for Education in
making that statement and I welcome the efforts that his Department makes to help and
605 support all our children, and identify particularly those who are potentially more at risk or
potentially suffering from parental or home issues.
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Moorhouse.
610 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
In the 2020-21 Budget, child benefits are increased by 2%. Will these increases have any
material impact on the number of children receiving free school meals?
The Speaker: Treasury Minister to reply.
615
The Minister: I do not have that information, Mr Speaker; but I am happy to try and ascertain
whether there is any material impact on the number of children receiving free school meals, as a
result of the increase in Child Benefit.
2.4. MiCard benefit or pension collection –
Alternative or additional server partners approached
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
Which alternative or additional service partners have been approached in respect of delivery
of benefit or pension collections via MiCard?
The Speaker: Question 4, I call on the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
620
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I would like to ask the Treasury Minister what alternative or additional service partners have
been approached in respect of delivery of benefit or pension collections via MiCard?
625 The Speaker: Treasury Minister to reply.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr Speaker, I refer the Hon. Member to the
comments that I have just made in answering his previous Question, that no alternative or
additional service partners have been approached in relation to the delivery of benefit or
630 pension collections via MiCard.
As Hon. Members are aware, the Treasury will be examining whether there might be an
alternative to the MiCard service for those persons wishing to collect their benefits or state
pensions in cash. Due to competing priorities, that piece of work has not yet started but will be
completed by June 2021.
635
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Hooper.
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600 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
In view of the reduction in reach that is being planned by the Isle of Man Post Office as part
640 of their retail consolidation strategy, should Treasury not now be looking to partner with
additional partners, new partners, well in advance of June 2021? Otherwise we may end up in a
position where we have gaps in service. Is this not a piece of work that really needs to be getting
on with now, to make sure that it is very closely aligned with the Post Office strategy?
645 The Speaker: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Mr Speaker, I appreciate that things change, move and evolve. Clearly, there
are continuing questions about the Post Office’s strategy, I am very conscious, that are coming
from the floor of this House and from the other place. I am very conscious that we are due to
650 see a report in the next couple of months from the Economic Policy Review Committee, and I am
also conscious that the Post Office have to continue to find a way forward to meet the various
challenges that they have very well outlined to both the House of Keys and Tynwald in recent
months.
As it stands at the moment, I am satisfied and remain satisfied, that the MiCard service
655 currently in place will meet the needs of society for the time being.
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
660 Really, I am not asking about the MiCard system that is currently in place; I am asking about
the MiCard system that will be in place by June 2021. That is a year away at least, a year and a
half away. We are going to continue seeing a reduction in the Post Office network throughout
that time; that has been made quite clear to this Hon. House and to Tynwald Court. So, really,
the question I am asking the Treasury Minister is: is he satisfied that the provision of the MiCard
665 service through the only service delivery partner, the Isle of Man Post Office, will continue to be
appropriate and sufficient right the way up to June 2021 or is this not a piece of work that really
needs to happen much sooner?
The Speaker: Minister to reply.
670
The Minister: Yes, I am satisfied with that position.
We are contracted to the Isle of Man Post Office for the use of MiCard until December 2022. I
am absolutely satisfied at the pace and timescales outlined for this review of MiCard to take
place.
INFRASTRUCTURE
2.5. Bus route amendments –
Prior impact assessment and public consultation
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mrs Corlett) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
What impact assessment and public consultation were undertaken prior to amending the bus
routes?
675 The Speaker: Question 5, and I call on the Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mrs Corlett.
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601 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Can I ask the Minister for Infrastructure what impact assessment and public consultation
were undertaken prior to amending the bus routes?
680
The Speaker: I call on the Minister for Infrastructure to reply.
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr Speaker.
A major review was taken of the bus network in 2012, which was fully consulted through the
685 Government central scheme for consultations. Since then, each year the network is checked
against the change in travelling habits and updates are made.
During the year we received comments and suggestions from passengers which were also
reviewed as part of this process. The formal consultation was undertaken by the RTLC, as part of
their statutory duties. There have been some changes this year to further reduce costs, and
690 generate more income, by matching service provision with demand.
The Hon. Member will, I hope, be pleased to know that as part of addressing the climate
emergency I will shortly bring forward a new policy on smarter movement. I recognise that the
climate emergency means that we have to move from what we can afford to what we should do,
and we will be specifying policy objectives for the key issues, such as frequency and connectivity.
695 We can debate that when the policy comes forward.
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mrs Corlett.
Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr Speaker, thank you for the Answer.
700 The Minister said there we have to adapt to what we can afford, but does he feel it is
appropriate that heritage transport seems to have a far higher priority for funding than public
transport?
The Speaker: We are slightly straying off the Question here, but Minister to reply.
705
The Minister: It is very interesting because I think I answered a question in another place
really around, if you like, journeys of desire, the visitor economy and how well that actually sits
within a framework of what strategy we are doing around smarter movement, active travel and
about getting more people on buses. Really, there is a good argument to say that those two do
710 not naturally fit (A Member: Hear, hear.) and obviously when we bring forward a policy on
smarter movement I think that will become a lot clearer.
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Callister.
715 Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Can I ask the Minister just to explain how the decision is reached from a public point of view
and from a Department view, the process, if possible?
The Speaker: Minister to reply.
720
The Minister: Thank you.
As I said in my original Answer, a major review was taken in 2012. That then is reviewed
every year, with passenger comments and suggestions, and that is reviewed at that part of the
process. It is then formally consulted on with the RTLC, that obviously then goes through the
725 political Member and through the Department. But the formal consultation is with the RTLC. We
are trying to get more passengers and more effectively.
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602 K137HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 10th MARCH 2020
Last year we saw a 3% increase but if you look over the last four or five years, we have
actually seen almost a 16% to 20% increase. When you take in what is happening in other
jurisdictions, where you are seeing massive reductions, I think we are seeing a success story.
730
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mrs Corlett.
Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
The Minister has confirmed that I am correct in my thinking that Government policy is to
735 encourage the use of public transport, but I would like to ask how does cutting bus routes fit
with that?
Would he agree that we give older people a free bus pass to encourage people to get out and
about, to retain independence and reduce loneliness and isolation? Would he also agree that to
make use of a bus pass you do actually need a bus in the first place? (Laughter) And I would ask
740 the Minister would he agree to take another look at this?
In the constituency of Douglas Central there is a large residential area now that has no access
by bus into the town centre, to the community health centre in Westmoreland Road or to the
Hospital.
745 The Speaker: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
The Member puts two very interesting points: the first really is about demand and in many
respects we had buses where people did not go on them so we do have an issue about changing
750 people’s behaviour, and that is really around what the smarter movement concept is.
If people do not actually use them, and we are running buses that are empty or are very little
used, then that is an issue, and we have to be running things much more efficiently. But, as I said
in my Answer, we will need to go from what we can afford to what we should do. And that is a
different take; that is answering a different question, which I absolutely get.
755 For example, around health services, are there innovative ways to deal with that rather than
traditional ways. We are always looking to change.
We have seen an increase in numbers. We have actually seen a decrease in the budget, not
just recently, over the last eight or nine years, and there have been £1.5 million of savings, so it
is about making more … But I think what we are changing, with the climate emergency, is going
760 really from what we can afford to what we should do, and I really take that point on board.
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
765 Just a question for the Minister, he said that the minor tweaks in this year’s timetable
resulted after they had checked against the travelling habits of passengers. I just wondered
whether it was in direct response to passenger feedback why the Number 3 route was made five
minutes earlier? I guess it is not a massive impact, as long as people are aware it is running five
minutes earlier, but I just wondered is this a forerunner to any more significant change on the
770 route? Why was it necessary to be five minutes earlier and will there be increased frequency in
the future?
The Speaker: It is more of a point of detail, Minister.
775 The Minister: That is quite a point of detail. What I can say is that I can certainly come back
to the Member on that.
I think what is very interesting is through subtle changes we can actually reduce the number
of buses that we need, and that is what makes the system much more efficient. But, like the
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